E2 extensions discussion

[Syranide]

(I definately hope you're not offended by my post, I'm just being intentionally very direct about my opinions and thoughts on the matter, I welcome your opinions if you disagree with my stance on the matter)

When I first started working on the holograms, I really looked at it as an extension that used geometric shapes to achieve what you want to achieve, why people look at it as a "limitation" I can understand, but I don't necessarily agree with. Calling that a limitation is similar to saying that not being able to use an aimbot in a game is a limitation, and should be added. The extension is and was built around using shapes to create things, and for a time I was seriously considering adding this, and making a convar to enable/disable it. But in truth it really comes down to the line drawing on what is acceptable and what is not, Bull specifically said that I would take care of this if and when I wanted to, I took that as a sign that I had some control on whether this was added, so I started working on a set of functions that would allow users to dynamically create meshes in place of normal models. And when I came online to see that someone stepped in and committed it anyway against my wishes was somewhat frustrating. My place is not to do the line drawing, I do understand that a majority of the community enjoys E2, but I hope that they are also willing to admit that it has taken creativity away from wiremod.

I do agree and understand with what you are saying to a point, but for the love of god, stop using the creativity argument, probably some 1% of the community probably has anything that remotely resembles true creativity and creativity has NOTHING to do with being limited, it's about making an end-product that is greater than the tools used for building it (by some definition). Aka, everyone sees holograms as debugging tools and pretty sparkles... Maso whips up a fully working implementation of Yoshi instead... that's creativity (by some definition)... regardless of if he'd built it with spheres or shipping containers, it'd still be every bit as awesome.

I don't see how HoloModelAny is so bad... yes, I do understand your argument about the shapes, "limitations" and all that, and I even agree to some extent, but I don't really see how it conflicts with HoloModelAny, there will still be those that prefer just basic shapes... and then some who will probably use HoloModelAny instead, and a bunch of new people will also start using holograms because of HoloModelAny (or get interested in holograms because of it. And even IF everyone started using HoloModelAny, what is the harm, they obviously want to... should it not exist because we're trying to keep an old "novel idea" alive by forcing it to? This is something that would make people see new possibilities with holograms and want to discover them.

I did have a similar mindset when I was working on E1, but it really dawned on me that going beyond the boundaries of the original intent is not so bad at all, if done under the right circumstances. E1 became much more than it was ever intended to be, and although I was skeptical to a lot of things at first I added them anyway (perhaps because I didn't really know any better), but people LOVED it. There would be nothing "novel" about E1 just being able to do numbers, the added GPS, gyroscope and vectors made it something so much better, and I'm sure that the majority of the community agrees.


And I do value your opinion on this as you are the author of the extension, and I really do hope that I can change your mind on this matter, but you haven't made any contributions or improvements to it since it's inception, which is fine, but if a similiar attitude was taken to all official extensions that then we'd end up going nowhere... my point being that in the case of me "abandoning" E2, naturally, the community is given some rights to continue to develop E2 on their own (as a fork or whatever one wants to call it)... and I've made unwilling "sacrifices" to E2 (from my point of view) because there was overwhelming demand for it, by some definition I may chose to do whatever the hell I want with E2, but I don't, and I've reversed decisions because the community disliked it... I have a responsibility towards the community, in the end I don't have 100% control over E2.

Please do not misinterpret my intention, but in a larger perspective, allowing a single "inactive" developer unlimited control is a slippery slope... and one that would have made Wiremod go nowhere if enforced for all the tools and entities. So, I hope we can come to terms, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, or some time.

Personally, I agree with Evac. Syranide, I don't think I ever see someone that is not completely new that uses thrusters as opposed to E2 applyforce, wiremod for me when I joined was about using the available tools to create something. Now, wiremod to me is using 1 tool to replace or do the job of those other tools, rendering all those tools "outdated" and "useless". It has also provoked a sort of laziness in my opinion, a simple example would be some of the functions like the string find functions and the floor check functions, E2 has become an almost full lua port into an in-game setting. When people want to do something, they think in terms of how hard it is, and go the path of least resistance, E2 seems to have just encouraged people to either, use what's available, or make something new, which is just totally against what wiremod is about in my opinion.

(This is all rather subjective as well, you are more likely to join or play on servers where people are proficient at E2 or enjoy that kind of thing, beginners and such are more likely to join random shitservers, so it's not strange for you to come across a certain kind of players. I've seen plenty of servers where nobody even knew what E2 was, but I never played on those servers.)

This is an opinion I absolutely don't share, Wiremod is not about making stuff hard or forcing players to take the path of most resistance, if that would be the mantra then it should be written somewhere. It is about empowering the player so that he/she can achieve what he/she wants to achieve, then let players achieve it however they want to. If you want to take the most resistive path, then go ahead, but obviously most people don't want to. Again, there is nothing "novel" about making stuff unnecessarily complex just for the sake of some novel idea. Most people want to build "awesome aircraft!" and then go about finding the tools required to build that aircraft, most would never say "it must be super awesome and only use the CPU because it's inherently awesome!" (but, yes, some probably will).

Now I don't mean this literally, but it in my opinion when extending that argument to infinity, that is bordering elitism, how only the most knowledgeable people should be able to make aircrafts using rediculously complex thruster setups that most would never understand... most regular people use hoverballs for that very reason. Sure enough, E2 is not easy for most people to grasph, but those with basic math or programming knowledge seem to find their way into it, there's would be nothing novel in intentionally having people code vectors by hand in E2.

And I honestly think that E2 could really have integrated with Wiremod, but Wiremod really did stop evolving and just expanded into a pile of stuff instead. Wire 2 was definately an evolutionary step forward, but has not really made it anywhere as of now, and I'm not sure if it really solves all the fundamental/architectural issues. I honestly believe that E2 became what it is today because Wiremod didn't... Wiremod is built on just one concept that scales poorly (in relation to what it COULD have become, given the right attention and leadership). I've said it before, I would LOVE for E2 to just have stayed a competent number cruncher and let Wiremod supply the functionality, but it didn't happen, Wiremod didn't evolve or something like that.

But anyway, I just ask that someone would PM me or notify me before making a major change that would totally destroy what I've been working on. And sorry if I came off as being abrasive, I was just under the impression I was in control of what is added to the holograms, but apparently I'm not.

I agree that a PM or something like that would have been a nice gesture, but I really don't blame Divran, the extension had been dormant for a long time, the issue had been discussed before, it was brought up again and there appears to be interest in it. So again, I do value your opinion and hope that we can come to terms, but like I mentioned above, as all of Wiremod is an open project, inactivity has to be treated as a surrender of rights to some degree.


If you feel like actively continuing the development of holograms in a serious manner then you will have control over it, and you may choose if HoloModelAny fits with your continued development efforts.

PS. Feel free to post here or PM me if you want to continue this discussion. I would prefer if you at the very least acknowledge my assessment/decision on the situation and your intentions, either here or by PM. I don't wish for this to end with this post and my opinions are not set in stone.


(I definately hope you're not offended by my post, I'm just being intentionally very direct about my opinions and thoughts on the matter, I welcome your opinions if you disagree with my stance on the matter)

[Whosdr]

I find holoModelAny a great function. It is used on SAS servers, and I've used it to create 1:10 scale hologram drones (with a flying E2, nothing too unfair). I even made an E2 to turn props into E2 hologram code.
Have a picture.




I've got a prop version on SAS too, which is where most of my stuff has been made since the end of 2009.

I find I get a lot more control out of E2, and I don't have to look around for the gates I want. People think I use just E2, but the little things I will use Wire, such as a weld latch when a door is open or closed, or some flashing police lights. The simple things. Anything more complex is easier in E2, I find.

[Ruadhan]

I also use holoModelAny() on a routine basis on Unsmart's Build Server. honestly not having it has been a major turnoff on other servers for me

my experience so far has been great, I can use any part, anywhere, without worrying about collisions and with minimal lag. its perfect for detail work and anywhere with lots of props moving around that nothing needs to come into contact with.
case in point, I'm busy working on a Bradley IFV at the moment, my gun-barrel is a distorted phx engine turbine, stretched out to about three times its normal length and one third the diameter it normally is. recoloured black. add another holoModelAny() prop on the end for the muzzle-brake and it looks -exactly- like the picture I'm working from.
said gunbarrel is basically an elongated curving cone with the muzzle brake on the end. there isn't -any- way I can see that I could have made that otherwise.
holoModelAny() has broadened my horizons by letting me create shapes that would have been utter hell to make any other way.

so far that's the only hologram work I've done on that project, but its early days, I'll probably do a fair bit with detail work for that. other projects have included a russian Mig-29 which is approximately 50% holoModelAny()
an Avatar-warmech from C&C3:Tiberium Wars which is about seven props and a buttload of holoModelAny()
and a few Vtols which also use holograms, mostly for the detailing, but I find using a hologram for the cockpit window allows easy access to the seat when I'm not allowed to noclip.

holoModelAny() is totally utterly invaluable for me.
personally I'm shocked that its not already in the SVN.

[McLovin]

*wall o' text

Ok, maybe I should just be direct and to the point, being able to set the holograms to any model is not what I invisioned when I first created them. People seemed to like the idea so I went along with it for a while, until I realised that it really destroyed what I was trying to acheive. And what do you mean "If you feel like actively continuing the development of hologrmas"? For the past year since they have been committed I've tried to stay on top of every bug, just because I don't want to commit something that I don't agree with doesn't mean I haven't been actively maintaining my addon. The reason nothing has been added or committed to them for a bit is 1. I've been working on something to commit, and 2. Theres not a hell of a lot of bugs with it. And it is rude by the way to come in here after disappearing for months and claim that I haven't maintained my addon (I'm not offended, just saying thats pretty stupid). The fact that I'm not on the forums 24/7 doesn't mean I'm "Inactive", it simply means that I have other things to do and don't have time to browse every thread...

Anyway, I was promoted to developer so I could maintain my addons as well as wiremod as a whole, I've put a lot of time and effort into the holograms, and this is not what I wanted them to become. I have/can/will continue developing them, and I'm working on functions to replace models entirely. I would hope that I still have control as to what gets added to my addon, and if this gets added I'm not going to bother working on them anymore.

P.S. If you want to use models, use prop core, don't turn the holograms into another poorly conceived addon that strip it of any sort of challenge...

[Colonel Thirty Two]

P.S. If you want to use models, use prop core, don't turn the holograms into another poorly conceived addon that strip it of any sort of challenge...

1. Props don't float in the middle of the air. (Well they do with applyforce, but that's wasted ops.)
2. Props are solid. (propNotSolid does not disable collisions with the world)
3. Props are laggier.
4. Props cannot be scaled (with E2, anyway).
5. Props cannot be parented without unofficial addons. Thought that was Feha's extension.
6. setAng doesn't work. for me.

Most of the time I use the geometric figures. If you make a spaceship out of the standard holo models, people will be amazed, but if you use holoModelAny + SBEP parts, then people will tell you that you suck. A good example where this would be useful is that SBEP assembler E2.

Also, you can't manipulate some props with E2 (ex. the spy's watch, the sandman's ball, most (if not all) v model), but you can turn them into holograms and use their functions.

EDIT: Why do we have holoSkin if all of the standard holo models have just 1 skin anyway?

[turck3]

Mk.... I'm going to start this off by apologizing if my tone unintentionally gets a little sour... I know I'm prone to such things

This may also be a bit redundant to what others have said in places...

The last comment I want to give before getting started, is that you should treat each one of my points below independently. I recognize that you may not agree with some (or even most) of my points, but I urge you to attack each issue separately (if you think it's warranted), and not shove your counter-argument into one unorganized mesh of disdain.



1. One of the biggest points I can see being argued here is that 'E2 takes away the creativity' and 'E2 makes vanilla wire contraptions look less good' and 'E2 has destroyed the challenge of doing things'. They all really mesh into one distraught point of view that is particularly anti-change. To that end, I'd like to pull up an article that applies to life in general, but definitely here too: The Law of Accelerating Returns

This article essentially states that technology is growing at an exponential rate. It wasn't long ago that we didn't have the internet. 10-20 years after its birth, the internet was populated only by the extremely rare nerd folk. Google comes out. Then, in what seems like an instant, youtube, myspace, facebook, paypal, ebay, and a ton of other popular sites turn up. That all happened in the course of a very small amount of time. They're HUUUUGE advancements, and they occurred in less time than it took to get the internet populated purely by nerdy folk using dial-up. It's exponential. So, why do I bring this up? Why bother? Well, think about it, nobody is complaining. You don't find people on the streets saying, "Youtube sucks man! I want my dial-up download connection to fetch my videos from an FTP server at 10kb/s because that's how real men do it!". You also don't hear people saying "MAAAAAN that's too high def! I want my old basic cable hookup, where the fact that there was a picture in a box alone was a miracle." I mean, sure, there's the old folk who don't know how to use the new stuff, the ones that can't keep up, that try and stick to what they know, the stuff from their golden years.

It should be noted, that what those aforementioned old folk did was impressive. Hell, it was probably amazing, but it's time for the next generation to build upon what they did. Even if we used vanilla wire lets say, we'd still have folk making new and amazing things with it, things that dwarfed all that came before it. The difference, is now we have developers that are capable of the same. We have developers who can say, alright, the last generation used a rock to hunt animals, and then they go off and make a spear. A spear inherently is better than a knife, so what happens, they hunt more, they eat more, and if the rock hunters don't switch over they get left behind. Rock hunting takes more skill to achieve the same task, but spears bring the opportunity to foster new tasks.

We need to let our developers be better developers, to let them improve our tools. I'm afraid I have to disagree with one of Syranide's points, Wiremod and E2 are not separate communities, they're merely different generations of the same one. Some find new tools, move forward, make more, advance society, and others become amazing in their own right by working with the tools of the past.

2. My second point is that the way I see vanilla Wiremod as it relates to E2 is as a teacher. Vanilla exists to prepare you for the next step, and that step, like it or not, is E2 or CPU/GPU (Yes, I accept that there is another branch that is equally amazing). Vanilla exists as a powerful visualization tool. I tell everyone that I know that if they want to learn how to program, wiremod is the place to start. Why? Because wiremod creates an environment that *forces* you to think about what you're doing. It creates problem solving skills that carry any programmer for life. Once you've figured out the basics, to go with another analogy, once you've learned algebra, it's time for calculus, or, E2. When you have the mental capacity to think like a programmer, it's time to act like one. E2 lets you act to your potential, it opens new doors and lets you do more with less. This isn't a bad thing, this is evolution. In algebra, if you have 700ft of fencing and you need to use it to make 2 squares with one shared border with the largest area possible, it takes a page, page and a half to find the maximum point, and even then most people would be stuck with a calculator. If you use calculus, it can be done in far less space. It's an improvement, you learn one so that you can understand the other, and then you do what's most efficient. In this instance, E2 is the most efficient way to make most contraptions. To this end, it is my belief that Lua is the next logical step from E2. One prepares you for the next, and as you move from one to the other, the limits of what you can do fade away, this is natural, this is evolution.

In general, I don't understand why people don't prefer having more extensions over less, unless they're minge-prone, of course. My point of view is the more tools you have at your disposal, the more possibilities for creating new and creative contraptions come with those tools.

3. I tend to agree with most of this statement. The one part I need to qualify however is the 'minge-prone' bit, because I think that the overall 'mingeyness' of an addon is a big point for those opposed to just about anything added to E2. The only thing I can think of to say to this, is that minges are generally not smart. That's why they do what they do. In my experience, they're the 8 year olds on their microphones, spamming bathtubes, smokestacks, red crates, thrusters and balloons. I believe that most minges fall into this category, and I believe that most 8 year olds lack the mental capacity to learn the advanced parts of Wiremod (I know because I've tried teaching it to them, among the other 500 folk I've taught in my time). Besides, minges generally go with the easiest form of attack. Because of all this, you're relatively safe in wiremod. There is a MUCH smaller population of jerks among us, and that's why almost anything we implement in the higher-up parts of wiremod is unlikely to be abused. Now, I won't delude myself, shit happens, people are jerks, and Murphy's law exists for a reason, but the probability is low.

Secondly, and from my point of view, most importantly, it looks to me like more of the slippery slope. I honestly expect to see propcore made official within six months. Now given mingability issues were addressed I personally wouldn't mind this if there was a non god-chip alternative version of e2 as well, but it seems the devs are unwilling to allow this.

Logical Fallacy: Slippery Slope
4. There's a reason that it's a logical fallacy. That point aside, (yay redundancy), moving forward is good and mingeability shouldn't be an issue (see above).

a standalone game where vanilla gmod or its users don't even rank as important

5. Where have you been? Too late. I'll be *amazed* if you can show me something worth while made in the sandbox gamemode of gmod without Wiremod that isn't amazing only because they used a different lua mod to do it. Back in the days of *only vanilla wiremod* I thought that the vanilla garrysmod users were behind, building largely ordinary devices. There will always be someone 'behind' because there will always be a 'behind'. One looks down upon the man who uses Windows NT and not XP or 7.

I'd keep E2 as a math processor, and to an extent, a device that can physically interact with the world around it.
However, extensions like PropCore, holoModelAny and so on... in my opinion is where the line should be drawn.
People are dis-valueing the old tools, I'm not the community and as I have said many times I cannot and will not tell you what and what not to do.
We can already applyForce, applyAngForce and applyTorque. If you want a prop to go to a specific position you should used applyForce (In my humble opinion) or thrusters for a challenge.

6. E1 was a math processor, we got rid of it because it had been improved upon, it was obsolete - this is why we "disvalue" old tools. I'm not suggesting we get rid of vanilla wiremod, but there's a reason most people end up at E2 or CPU/GPU.


7. applyForce got an argument bigger than this one if I recall, and yet you accept it as the ordinary now. It's just change, get used to it.


8. Finally, I know that you were one of the biggest advocates of removing the function, and this begs the question, why would you have a large percentage of your posts in the "Attempting the Impossible" thread and yet also be opposed to simple changes in E2? You're asking to push the bounds of the bloody physics engine, *the game itself*, but you won't push the bounds of E2 because it doesn't sit right. Does that seem right to you?

(I recognize that this point is directed mostly at Evac, however I think it applies to the community as a whole too. Think about it, there haven't really been any serious objections to anything in that thread!)

.

Why should there be limits, what are those limits and why those limits?

9. The way I see it, and the way I think you see it, is that the limit should be ones imagination. Garrysmod, since its birth, has been about seeing your creations, your imagination, come to life. You who oppose say that E2 sucks the creativity from the game, but I disagree, I say that it merely presents new challenges, new options, and the greater ability to express what's in your head.

Anyway, I was promoted to developer so I could maintain my addons as well as wiremod as a whole, I've put a lot of time and effort into the holograms, and this is not what I wanted them to become. I have/can/will continue developing them, and I'm working on functions to replace models entirely. I would hope that I still have control as to what gets added to my addon

10. I don't know if this is the official policy or not..... but the way I see it.... once you commit something to the official SVN, it belongs to the community. What you did was great, amazing even, and the code that started it was written by your hand, nobody can deny this, not even those who would've protested the adding of E2 holograms at all, but accept that others have the right to change it to reflect the will of the community as a whole.

and if this gets added I'm not going to bother working on them anymore.

11. Well that would be a damn shame, it's also a line that developers seem to be throwing left and right every time a discussion like this comes up. I'm sorry that you all say that a small infraction of what you believe to be right or wrong will throw you over the edge. The only analogy I can think of is that of suicide.... why on Earth would you go die if one bad thing happened to you? You still have a lot of accomplishments under your belt, you're still worth a good deal, and you still have a lot to offer. Besides, its not like its going to prevent you from ever having fun again, everybody recovers if they let themselves.



Anyway, I know that's a big wall of text, but please read it, and consider each point to be independent if you'd be so kind.

As a final statement, I'd like to assert again that I recognize that my tone is sometimes prone to unintentionally becoming a bit sour, and for this, I apologize.

[McLovin]

1. Props don't float in the middle of the air. (Well they do with applyforce, but that's wasted ops.)
2. Props are solid. (propNotSolid does not disable collisions with the world)
3. Props are laggier.
4. Props cannot be scaled (with E2, anyway).
5. Props cannot be parented without unofficial addons. Thought that was Feha's extension.
6. setAng doesn't work. for me.

1. Wrong
2. Wrong
3. Wrong
6. Wrong

You can disable physics and freeze props using only repositioning with propcore, holoModelAny is essentially just a less ming-able prop core, which is not what I want...

10. I don't know if this is the official policy or not..... but the way I see it.... once you commit something to the official SVN, it belongs to the community. What you did was great, amazing even, and the code that started it was written by your hand, nobody can deny this, not even those who would've protested the adding of E2 holograms at all, but accept that others have the right to change it to reflect the will of the community as a whole.

Did I say anything about removing it or anything even vaguely related to removing them? I simply said that I was working on a better alternative, I also never said that people can't make changes to them, I just disagree with this specific change.

I've been working on them for the past year now I would appreciate it if people would just talk to me before making major changes, especially when it has been made clear that I have taken this under consideration and decided against it.

11. Well that would be a damn shame, it's also a line that developers seem to be throwing left and right every time a discussion like this comes up. I'm sorry that you all say that a small infraction of what you believe to be right or wrong will throw you over the edge. The only analogy I can think of is that of suicide.... why on Earth would you go die if one bad thing happened to you? You still have a lot of accomplishments under your belt, you're still worth a good deal, and you still have a lot to offer. Besides, its not like its going to prevent you from ever having fun again, everybody recovers if they let themselves.

I don't think what I said was even close to what your describing, you twist my words so that it sounds like I'm giving it all away for this. I'm just saying that if someone is going to step in and throw my work away, then why continue just to have more time wasted? I spent a lot of time maintaining this addon and I feel that I should have say in what goes in, and not agreeing with me is not grounds to go and make a big protest, I would understand if I was neglectful and left bugs unchecked, but I don't think that is the case...

[Divran]

I'd just like to say that I agree with everything Syranide says.
Also, turck's second point is interesting, as that's almost exactly what has happened to me. When I bought Gmod, I started with Wiremod pretty much the first week, however, so I didn't use vanilla much. When E2 came out, I started using that. When I had mastered E2, I went on to Lua. Now I hardly play Gmod at all anymore, I just code Lua for it.

My opinion is that holoModelAny is not a bad thing in any shape or form and that it should be added, but I believe that ultimately, it is McLovin's choice since it is his extension. All we can do is try to persuade him. I am also sorry that I jumped ahead and committed it. Luckily it's very easy to revert changes with SVN
I'm also interested in this other thing McLovin says he is working..

Edit:
Is it just me or is this argument kind of one-sided? It seems that McLovin is the only one against it. Maybe there are more people against it, but they either haven't noticed this thread or haven't posted in it. Just an observation.

[McLovin]

Is it just me or is this argument kind of one-sided? It seems that McLovin is the only one against it. Maybe there are more people against it, but they either haven't noticed this thread or haven't posted in it. Just an observation.

There are several people I know that are against it, but don't want to get involved because of the inevitable flame war. I'm not saying this is bad, or that it shouldn't be used, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be official. If you want to use normal models, that is what prop core is for, maybe if this was put into the uwsvn with a convar to enable/disable? Its frustrating when your tossed aside despite your effort just because people don't agree with you. I'm trying to meet you guys half way, but I'm drawing the line here, and as I said before, if you don't respect my opinion enough to meet me half way then its no longer worth my effort and time.

[Tolyzor]

Logical Fallacy: Slippery Slope
4. There's a reason that it's a logical fallacy. That point aside, (yay redundancy), moving forward is good and mingeability shouldn't be an issue.

I suggest you read the first reader response to that rather pious article. Slippery slopes do exist in the real world. By that I mean gradual change being used to enact changes that would otherwise be rejected. I am merely looking at the bigger picture and wondering where wiremod is going. Do we really want all of the creativity of building physical contraptions and getting them to interact with the game world made obsolete by ending up with some function that just does the whole thing for us?

Quite a few in this thread have used the argument "well if it exists, why not use it?". Well, maybe those people need to take a look at themselves and recall the hoverball noobs that were once frowned upon. Building in gmod is not fun because it is easy, its fun because it is hard and challenging.

5. Where have you been? Too late. I'll be *amazed* if you can show me something worth while made in the sandbox gamemode of gmod without Wiremod that isn't amazing only because they used a different lua mod to do it. Back in the days of *only vanilla wiremod* I thought that the vanilla garrysmod users were behind, building largely ordinary devices.

Where have I been? I've been consistently resisting the slippery slope since I joined the forum is where I've been. You say too late, yet you frown upon people resisting gradual change. Hmmm.

I suggest you take a look at this for just a few examples of awesome vanilla gmod contraptions. I have personally made many vanilla contraptions which I would consider amazing, not just aesthetically pleasing ones either. Care to beat the awesomeness of a working pendulum clock or a mouse trap built solely in vanilla gmod with an e2 version? One of the problem with these forums is that because they are so much more grown up than facepunch, awesome vanilla contraptions are often missed by people who don't make a forced visit to facepunch every once in a while . As a side note, I expect to see a lot more amazing vanilla contraptions appearing in the near future thanks to polyweld and the recent(ish) release of wenlis tools.

I am still not saying I am 100% behind getting rid of holoModel. However, I am 100% behind it's creator, IamMcLovin.