Mk.... I'm going to start this off by apologizing if my tone unintentionally gets a little sour... I know I'm prone to such things
This may also be a bit redundant to what others have said in places...
The last comment I want to give before getting started, is that you should treat each one of my points below independently. I recognize that you may not agree with some (or even most) of my points, but I urge you to attack each issue separately (if you think it's warranted), and not shove your counter-argument into one unorganized mesh of disdain.
1. One of the biggest points I can see being argued here is that 'E2 takes away the creativity' and 'E2 makes vanilla wire contraptions look less good' and 'E2 has destroyed the challenge of doing things'. They all really mesh into one distraught point of view that is particularly anti-change. To that end, I'd like to pull up an article that applies to life in general, but definitely here too: The Law of Accelerating Returns
This article essentially states that technology is growing at an exponential rate. It wasn't long ago that we didn't have the internet. 10-20 years after its birth, the internet was populated only by the extremely rare nerd folk. Google comes out. Then, in what seems like an instant, youtube, myspace, facebook, paypal, ebay, and a ton of other popular sites turn up. That all happened in the course of a very small amount of time. They're HUUUUGE advancements, and they occurred in less time than it took to get the internet populated purely by nerdy folk using dial-up. It's exponential. So, why do I bring this up? Why bother? Well, think about it, nobody is complaining. You don't find people on the streets saying, "Youtube sucks man! I want my dial-up download connection to fetch my videos from an FTP server at 10kb/s because that's how real men do it!". You also don't hear people saying "MAAAAAN that's too high def! I want my old basic cable hookup, where the fact that there was a picture in a box alone was a miracle." I mean, sure, there's the old folk who don't know how to use the new stuff, the ones that can't keep up, that try and stick to what they know, the stuff from their golden years.2. My second point is that the way I see vanilla Wiremod as it relates to E2 is as a teacher. Vanilla exists to prepare you for the next step, and that step, like it or not, is E2 or CPU/GPU (Yes, I accept that there is another branch that is equally amazing). Vanilla exists as a powerful visualization tool. I tell everyone that I know that if they want to learn how to program, wiremod is the place to start. Why? Because wiremod creates an environment that *forces* you to think about what you're doing. It creates problem solving skills that carry any programmer for life. Once you've figured out the basics, to go with another analogy, once you've learned algebra, it's time for calculus, or, E2. When you have the mental capacity to think like a programmer, it's time to act like one. E2 lets you act to your potential, it opens new doors and lets you do more with less. This isn't a bad thing, this is evolution. In algebra, if you have 700ft of fencing and you need to use it to make 2 squares with one shared border with the largest area possible, it takes a page, page and a half to find the maximum point, and even then most people would be stuck with a calculator. If you use calculus, it can be done in far less space. It's an improvement, you learn one so that you can understand the other, and then you do what's most efficient. In this instance, E2 is the most efficient way to make most contraptions. To this end, it is my belief that Lua is the next logical step from E2. One prepares you for the next, and as you move from one to the other, the limits of what you can do fade away, this is natural, this is evolution.
It should be noted, that what those aforementioned old folk did was impressive. Hell, it was probably amazing, but it's time for the next generation to build upon what they did. Even if we used vanilla wire lets say, we'd still have folk making new and amazing things with it, things that dwarfed all that came before it. The difference, is now we have developers that are capable of the same. We have developers who can say, alright, the last generation used a rock to hunt animals, and then they go off and make a spear. A spear inherently is better than a knife, so what happens, they hunt more, they eat more, and if the rock hunters don't switch over they get left behind. Rock hunting takes more skill to achieve the same task, but spears bring the opportunity to foster new tasks.
We need to let our developers be better developers, to let them improve our tools. I'm afraid I have to disagree with one of Syranide's points, Wiremod and E2 are not separate communities, they're merely different generations of the same one. Some find new tools, move forward, make more, advance society, and others become amazing in their own right by working with the tools of the past.
3. I tend to agree with most of this statement. The one part I need to qualify however is the 'minge-prone' bit, because I think that the overall 'mingeyness' of an addon is a big point for those opposed to just about anything added to E2. The only thing I can think of to say to this, is that minges are generally not smart. That's why they do what they do. In my experience, they're the 8 year olds on their microphones, spamming bathtubes, smokestacks, red crates, thrusters and balloons. I believe that most minges fall into this category, and I believe that most 8 year olds lack the mental capacity to learn the advanced parts of Wiremod (I know because I've tried teaching it to them, among the other 500 folk I've taught in my time). Besides, minges generally go with the easiest form of attack. Because of all this, you're relatively safe in wiremod. There is a MUCH smaller population of jerks among us, and that's why almost anything we implement in the higher-up parts of wiremod is unlikely to be abused. Now, I won't delude myself, shit happens, people are jerks, and Murphy's law exists for a reason, but the probability is low.
Originally Posted by Muffin Burgler
Logical Fallacy: Slippery Slope
Originally Posted by Tolyzor
4. There's a reason that it's a logical fallacy. That point aside, (yay redundancy), moving forward is good and mingeability shouldn't be an issue (see above).
5. Where have you been? Too late. I'll be *amazed* if you can show me something worth while made in the sandbox gamemode of gmod without Wiremod that isn't amazing only because they used a different lua mod to do it. Back in the days of *only vanilla wiremod* I thought that the vanilla garrysmod users were behind, building largely ordinary devices. There will always be someone 'behind' because there will always be a 'behind'. One looks down upon the man who uses Windows NT and not XP or 7.
Originally Posted by Tolyzor
6. E1 was a math processor, we got rid of it because it had been improved upon, it was obsolete - this is why we "disvalue" old tools. I'm not suggesting we get rid of vanilla wiremod, but there's a reason most people end up at E2 or CPU/GPU.
Originally Posted by Evac
7. applyForce got an argument bigger than this one if I recall, and yet you accept it as the ordinary now. It's just change, get used to it.
8. Finally, I know that you were one of the biggest advocates of removing the function, and this begs the question, why would you have a large percentage of your posts in the "Attempting the Impossible" thread and yet also be opposed to simple changes in E2? You're asking to push the bounds of the bloody physics engine, *the game itself*, but you won't push the bounds of E2 because it doesn't sit right. Does that seem right to you?
(I recognize that this point is directed mostly at Evac, however I think it applies to the community as a whole too. Think about it, there haven't really been any serious objections to anything in that thread!).
9. The way I see it, and the way I think you see it, is that the limit should be ones imagination. Garrysmod, since its birth, has been about seeing your creations, your imagination, come to life. You who oppose say that E2 sucks the creativity from the game, but I disagree, I say that it merely presents new challenges, new options, and the greater ability to express what's in your head.
Originally Posted by Syranide
10. I don't know if this is the official policy or not..... but the way I see it.... once you commit something to the official SVN, it belongs to the community. What you did was great, amazing even, and the code that started it was written by your hand, nobody can deny this, not even those who would've protested the adding of E2 holograms at all, but accept that others have the right to change it to reflect the will of the community as a whole.
Originally Posted by IamMcLovin
11. Well that would be a damn shame, it's also a line that developers seem to be throwing left and right every time a discussion like this comes up. I'm sorry that you all say that a small infraction of what you believe to be right or wrong will throw you over the edge. The only analogy I can think of is that of suicide.... why on Earth would you go die if one bad thing happened to you? You still have a lot of accomplishments under your belt, you're still worth a good deal, and you still have a lot to offer. Besides, its not like its going to prevent you from ever having fun again, everybody recovers if they let themselves.
Originally Posted by IamMcLovin
Anyway, I know that's a big wall of text, but please read it, and consider each point to be independent if you'd be so kind.
As a final statement, I'd like to assert again that I recognize that my tone is sometimes prone to unintentionally becoming a bit sour, and for this, I apologize.